New Anti-McCain Ad Hits Home

**jaypeesmith** · 06-17-2008, 02:41 PM

06-17-2008 01:29 PM

Often, when I think about the current wars we are in, I don’t think about what will be asked of me. Instead, I think about my 5-year-old son. My son was born just a few months after we invaded Iraq. I know that the wrong choice of president could mean that, one day, my son could be called up for compulsory military service as we commemorate our 18th year of war in that country. I don’t want that for my child and I don’t see John McCain as a path away from that possibility.

So, when I saw this ad from MoveOn.org, I couldn’t help but think of what’s at stake this November.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq30lapbC9c

**TUCKER** · 06-17-2008, 08:58 PM

I try to avoid political ads, but would Obama's administration be any better. After all hes talking negotiating, or opening up the lines of communication with those in the Arab community who adamantly oppose US policies in the middle east. I sort of get the feeling that either way, your son might be subject to "A CALL TO ARMS" by the time hes 18 or so.

**jaypeesmith** · 06-18-2008, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUCKER

I try to avoid political ads, but would Obama's administration be any better. After all hes talking negotiating, or opening up the lines of communication with those in the Arab community who adamantly oppose US policies in the middle east. I sort of get the feeling that either way, your son might be subject to "A CALL TO ARMS" by the time hes 18 or so.

I don't think it would be the same. It was Bush's lack of diplomacy that left the opening for N. Korea to develop nuclear weapons and Iran's move toward that end. Also, just as a point of fact, Obama is talking about diplomacy with Iran and Iranians aren't Arab.

**TUCKER** · 06-18-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaypeesmith

Obama is talking about diplomacy with Iran and Iranians aren't Arab.

Hate to differ, but hes talking about establishing a line of communication with more than just Iran and the Iranians. Don't recall the quote at the moment, but I don't recall him specifying anyone in particular.

"aren't Arab." I really don't understand this JP?

**sista** · 06-18-2008, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUCKER

I try to avoid political ads, but would Obama's administration be any better. After all hes talking negotiating, or opening up the lines of communication with those in the Arab community who adamantly oppose US policies in the middle east.

what's wrong w/ that? after all, it was OUR oppressive, colonial policies in the Middle East that got us attacked on 9/11 in the first dammy....

**jaypeesmith** · 06-18-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUCKER

Hate to differ, but hes talking about establishing a line of communication with more than just Iran and the Iranians. Don't recall the quote at the moment, but I don't recall him specifying anyone in particular.

"aren't Arab." I really don't understand this JP?

Nonetheless, what's the problem with diplomacy? To end a war or avoid a war, it typically requires the people at the top to communicate with one another. Hell, even Reagan did that.

Also, Iranians are Persian, not Arab. Because of that, you are talking about vastly different cultures, societies and world views.

**TUCKER** · 06-18-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sista

what's wrong w/ that?

Nothing I suppose, but isn't everyone hollering about getting out of the middle east, more or less? How will chatting with those that represent that area facilitate a withdrawal of the troops, which many seem to desire.

Quote:

it was OUR oppressive, colonial policies in the Middle East that got us attacked on 9/11 in the first dammy....

I wouldn't argue that point either. We supported the puppet gov't of the Shah of Iran as long as he was a force that we could benefit from. When the Ayatollah returned to power and ousted the Shah and anyone associated with him, he returned Iran to many of the old traditions. Women were covered and subservient again, they weren't allowed to wear pants, etc. There was also a book written by some guy from England who was put on the hit list for publishing it. Finally the Shah declared that anyone who supported the regime of the Shah was an enemy of not only Iran, but the Muslim world. The events of 9/11 came about as a result of these events. Many say a direct result!

**TUCKER** · 06-18-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaypeesmith

Nonetheless, what's the problem with diplomacy? To end a war or avoid a war, it typically requires the people at the top to communicate with one another. Hell, even Reagan did that.

Diplomacy, thats how Hitler conquered Poland w'out firing a shot as I recall. Reagan and others abandoned diplomacy shortly after taking office. I think it has been agreed that the diplomacy that democracy is based on is not affective in these modern times. As you said those at the top seem to know whats best for those at the bottom. Now thats democracy at work, isn't it?! (you know I'm half ass messin with you don't you?) I know what you're saying, I just don't like all the conviction it seems to purvey!

Quote:

Also, Iranians are Persian, not Arab. Because of that, you are talking about vastly different cultures, societies and world views.

JP, come on now, you know you're splitting hairs now don't you? I suppose my western perception hasn't discerned the difference between an arab and a persian. You sure "vastly different cultures" is a good analogy?

**jaypeesmith** · 06-18-2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUCKER

Diplomacy, thats how Hitler conquered Poland w'out firing a shot as I recall. Reagan and others abandoned diplomacy shortly after taking office. I think it has been agreed that the diplomacy that democracy is based on is not affective in these modern times. As you said those at the top seem to know whats best for those at the bottom. Now thats democracy at work, isn't it?! (you know I'm half ass messin with you don't you?) I know what you're saying, I just don't like all the conviction it seems to purvey!

It wasn't diplomacy that handed Hitler Poland -- it was appeasement.

Diplomacy is negotiating, as in how treaties are created.

Appeasement is giving something to someone, typically out of fear, in hopes of avoiding certain outcomes. This was the mistake of Neville Chamberlain in the 30's (giving Hitler Poland in hopes he would not launch a war).

Actually, the Reagan administration kept up talks with the Soviet Union, which kept us from blowing each other to smithereens so, I can, at least, credit them for one good thing.

Quote:

JP, come on now, you know you're splitting hairs now don't you? I suppose my western perception hasn't discerned the difference between an arab and a persian. You sure "vastly different cultures" is a good analogy?

Actually, this is the problem. We have people at the top lying us into wars because we choose to be ignorant of facts that we could easily research. In fact, most Arab nations hate Iran (and vice-versa) due to most Arabs being Sunni Muslims and Iranians being predominately Shia. So, I actually do think that this is a good analogy. In the West, we seem to pride ourselves on our ignorance of the world as if not understanding it doesn't have any repercussions for us back home.

**TUCKER** · 06-18-2008, 09:15 PM

Sunni Muslims and Shia. Aren't these religious differences? Sort of like Catholics, Protestants. They're still christians, right. Muslim/Shia, they're still Arab right?

I'll get to the rest of your post in a bit, I'm cutting my grass and the Mrs'll think I ran away if I'm gone too long! You know, you got one too! LMAO

**sista** · 06-19-2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaypeesmith

In the West, we seem to pride ourselves on our ignorance of the world as if not understanding it doesn't have any repercussions for us back home.

that's why my tagline on most whyt 'progressive' sites is:

war is how amerikkkans learn geography

**jaypeesmith** · 06-19-2008, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUCKER

Sunni Muslims and Shia. Aren't these religious differences? Sort of like Catholics, Protestants. They're still christians, right. Muslim/Shia, they're still Arab right?

I'll get to the rest of your post in a bit, I'm cutting my grass and the Mrs'll think I ran away if I'm gone too long! You know, you got one too! LMAO

On the grass-cutting thing...I can relate.

Arab is not a religion. It's an ethnicity. It would be like saying Chinese and Japanese people are just alike.

Granted, they are both Muslims but, they appear to have deep divisions that, as far as I can surmise, began over 1400 years ago. Obviously, we see some of the most extreme instances of these differences in present-day Iraq.

In terms of what we in the West can relate to, we would likely see Shia as less stringent than Sunni but, in all honesty, I'm sure that it's very debatable on either side.